The key is to cinch both the bowline and the backup down tightly. Bowline is more easily mistied than Figure-of-Eight. I don't think the bowline is that good of an idea just because it's so easy to tie it wrong and it's hard to inspect. The proposition tendered by that person could apply to any knot - to single out Scotts locked Bowline is non-sensical. Bowline's stopper knot sits inside the main loop of the knot, and therefore, when it is used as the tie-in point to the harness, the stopper knot touches and catches a harness and/or other things around it all the time, and hence is more likely to get undone than the one with Figure-of-Eight (n.b., Figure-of-Eight knot, unlike Bowline, does not need a stopper knot in the first place for the purpose of extra strength). However, I do not think it is less likely to come loose than the standard Bowline. In my blog post a year ago, Cross-loading on knots, I argued Bowline knots are vulnerable to cross-loading, and I also referred to a YouTube video "Yosemite Bowline not safe for climbing" (by "Yosemite Bowline" — seemingly the one-time account), which warns a potential danger of Yosemite Bowline (see also the extensive discussion in the UKC forum). 8 but this seems like something worth investing some time in. And yes we are scared of falling. Didn't know about that, but I'm sure that she trusted her knot tying skills 200%. For example, if you want to compare particular off-road 4WD (SUV) vehicle against another vehicle, you need to select another 4WD (SUV). 1. There's no risk that you'll need to cut the rope off your harness. Searched through pages forever and the search bar turned up nothing. This strong loop knot is a variation of the bowline that has the free end wrapped around one side of the loop and tucked back into the knot, commonly known as a Yosemite finish. My apologies if this was posted before. If you're not one of the above, don't use it. So this question does only make sense for a double bowline. Yosemite Bowline. Lines and paragraphs break automatically. Any tie-in knot that is loose - has the potential to fail (obviously). Cookies help us deliver our Services. Note that they all are to some extent more awkward to dress (or set) the knot properly, and hence the caution in tying is still essential. I was originally taught to climb with the fig. If you pull (yank) on the tail before the core of the knot is properly cinched tight - the tail will become 'displaced' to a position inside the nipping loop. The key is to cinch both the bowline and the backup down tightly. Quote from Masa: But it's a less common tie-in knot, and it's reasonably difficult to look at it and just know. I've fallen on this knot over and over, I've used it in 11mm singles and 8.5 doubles and it's always been a champ. Bowline is especially vulnerable for cross-loading. I'm happy with this in a sport context with frequent tieing and untieing. I have heard of a rumour Double-Bowline is pretty popular in Germany as the tie-in knot. Why do you ignore the facts? Bowline can be undone accidentally, especially in a course of a long day. I often use a single bowline backup with a double overhand knots for backup. Tied correctly, the double bowline is a safe, versatile climbing knot and will hold the weight of a fall without fusing. Summary of failure mode: Authors seem to ignore certain facts and only choose to report on negative press about 'Bowlines' - presumably because they already have preconceived bias. The fisherman's backup never seems to do anythign on this knot, except keep the tail out of the way, and a bowline is very easy to untie even after repeated falls. Pro climber Heather Weidner discusses the pros and cons of two tie-in knots. Reply: This statement is factually incorrect - and represents only the opinion of Masa. If the knot would be extremely loose and you would somehow manage to pull both sides of the loop to opposite directions the non wrapped yosemite finish can roll open (can't really see this happening in real life situations though). Bowline relies for a part of its strength on an additional stopper knot — in other words, if a stopper knot is not tied (or is undone, as it happens occasionally especially after a prolonged use), it is weaker, and the rope-end may travel through under a high load, even to the point of complete destruction of the knot. This knot is also more secure than the bowline with new, stiff, or slick ropes and in situations where the knot could rub against the rock (chimney climbing)— it’s much less likely to come undone. The primary reason is it can be untied much more easily than figure-of-eight after taking a fall(s). As a graduate of the boy scouts, I already trust my knot tying, and can tie a regular bowline like it's my job, and I will practice on the ground before leading at/above my onsite level. (Google images of "sheet bend", which is bowline-like : that is usually presented from the helpful side; but bowline, almost never.). Bowline is more difficult for partners to check (partly because many modern climbers don't know it in the first place). A competent diligent climber would undertake a partner check BEFORE commencing climbing - to check things such as their tie-in knot. Typical answer, yeah, I know. Should we ban screw-gate carabiners? edit: the i.e. "Anyhow, the primary point of the article is that Bowline, including Yosemite Bowline, is much more insecure than Figure-of-Eight, especially in the course of a long day." I have never heard of any quantitative assessment of the knot. I agree with you in one point; if it is properly cinched tight, it is OK, but only while that orientation is being kept. If Yosemite Bowline is tied correctly and stays as such, there is no such risk. There have been instances of bowlines coming untied with a new rope—one, in particular, high on a 30-meter 5.12 in Rifle, Colorado. You then mislead the reader into thinking that all 'Bowlines' are somehow unsafe (based on the Yosemite Bowline). Thank you for your comment, Mark. I think you have a responsibility to correct your content. Yet, if the knot is causing accidents, maybe we should rethink it. It has nothing to do with the orientation of the tail as you claim... and your 'wrong-sided' Yosemite Bowline is in fact the correct orientation. After all, Yosemite Bowline is, like any other Bowline variants, more awkward to dress well than the standard Bowline. A critical problem is that there is no guarantee the condition holds in a course of a long day, and worse, one will forget checking about it, after tying one, on an odd day, sooner or later – it is just a matter of probability…, Submitted by Mark Gommers (not verified) on Thu, 2018-07-26 03:27. 'http':'https';if(!d.getElementById(id)){js=d.createElement(s);;js.src=p+'://';fjs.parentNode.insertBefore(js,fjs);}}(document, 'script', 'twitter-wjs'); The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Ready to tie into the sharp end? At worst, you wont hear people talking about it at your funeral. Yosemite Bowline knot has served me well so far. Tied correctly, the double bowline is a safe, versatile climbing knot and will hold the weight of a fall without fusing. ), Submitted by KnudeNoggin (not verified) on Thu, 2020-05-07 19:42, One HELLuva lot of bowline confusion would be spared were the proper FRONT side of the knot shown instead of --as has been done since the dark ages-- the back side :: show the side where the main line crosses itself in making that key/bowline-defining loop!! For long routes (5+ pitches), aid climbing, or ice, I exclusively use the figure 8. If you are trying to compare the #1047 Figure 8 eye knot against 'a' 'Bowline' - you need to compare it to one of the secure Bowlines. I had never heard of the "Yosemite finish" for a bowline, or double bowline, but from the video it looks as if one orientation of passing the free (tail) end back through, coupled with pulling that end first to tighten the knot can result in "no knot". Yosemite Bowline seems to be decently popular in the UK and (I guess) US among climbers. That means the acceptable probability of mistying the harness tying-point is smaller than 1 in 10 millions, or 0.00001%. That person simply posted an experience that he was involved with - with a deliberately loosened knot and a deliberately induced snag. For a double bowline mentioned in the linked question there is a technical difference between inside and outside (though I do not know whether it is relevant), but for a bowline on a bight this distinction is not there at all, as both ends are threaded along the whole knot. It is safe. When you use the word 'Bowline' - you need to be very clear as to which 'Bowline' you are actually referring to. To the same end, one consideration that hasn't been brought up yet: it's very easy to tie a knot that looks like a bowline, but actually unties when weighted. There are many different types of Bowlines. Here is my video to demonstrate the point — risk of Yosemite Bowline. Of which some might incorporate a fig.8 structure, for security measures. As with all knots, practice is key. However, there are tricks like tugging on the knot using the two strands on either side of it, or rolling the knot back and forth on a flat rock, that should eventually soften it up. © 2020 Cruz Bay Publishing, Inc., an Active Interest Media Company. Mark Gommers, Submitted by Eugene Kim (not verified) on Tue, 2020-01-07 06:06.